http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/ Discussions on science, skepticism, pseudoscience; trips on the borders of religion and science; brief adventures in hi-fi; this is a Journey through a Burning Mind... Sat, 19 May 2012 17:46:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15847 LeeT Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:17:57 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15847 You need to read it if you want to become an expert on the evidence base for alternative remedies. Where there is evidence for some "alternative" remedies - e.g St Johns Wort and some types of osteopathy - Ernst and Singh are not afraid to say so http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15814 Stavros Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:59:35 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15814 LeeT, I think Qi and Ch'i it's the same thing just spelled differently... It's supposed to be that life energy flow as you say. None has any base in reality of course :-) By the way, Singh's book is high on my list. Any initial thoughts?

By the way, Singh’s book is high on my list. Any initial thoughts?]]> http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15809 LeeT Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:13:05 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15809 Apologies, but I have just had a look at Ernst and Singh's Trick or Treatment. Acupuncture is to do with Ch'i not Qi, Yin or Yang. The Ch'i a vital life force flow through meridians. So if anyone claims acupuncture works they need to explain what Ch'i and meridians are. I am waiting ....
So if anyone claims acupuncture works they need to explain what Ch’i and meridians are.

I am waiting ….]]> http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15743 Stavros Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:46:30 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15743 That's cool. We can call it "alternative alternative medicine" :-) ]]> http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15740 sciencebitches Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:23:31 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15740 LeeT, go on! you seem to have stumbled upon a very interesting idea. Shall we design such a trial? What else can we possibly stick to people?
What else can we possibly stick to people?]]> http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15739 LeeT Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:08:57 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15739 Perhaps a trial could be done sticking pencils or keyrings in to people? Would that count as acupuncture? http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15735 sciencebitches Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:26:44 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15735 "Shame I did not read this article yesterday. I would then have remembered to make the point about sham acupuncture." Oh damn, that would have been fun to watch!
Oh damn, that would have been fun to watch!]]> http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15734 Stavros Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:26:29 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15734 "<b>I would then have remembered to make the point about sham acupuncture.</b>" -that ought to have been interesting :-) "<b>Any positive benefits of acupuncture surely have to be due to sticking needles in people rather than pre-scientific notiions of Qi, Yin and Yang or whatever.</b>" -well, that's certainly what the reviews have shown! And you don't even have to stick the needles anywhere! It's simply an elaborate placebo. And as Steven Novella has pointed out, it is not right to say that acupuncture works at all! I would then have remembered to make the point about sham acupuncture.” -that ought to have been interesting

“Any positive benefits of acupuncture surely have to be due to sticking needles in people rather than pre-scientific notiions of Qi, Yin and Yang or whatever.” -well, that’s certainly what the reviews have shown! And you don’t even have to stick the needles anywhere! It’s simply an elaborate placebo.

And as Steven Novella has pointed out, it is not right to say that acupuncture works at all!]]> http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15730 LeeT Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:51:43 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15730 I had dinner with the former publicity person for the British Acupuncturist Association yesterday evening. Shame I did not read this article yesterday. I would then have remembered to make the point about sham acupuncture. Any positive benefits of acupuncture surely have to be due to sticking needles in people rather than pre-scientific notiions of Qi, Yin and Yang or whatever.
Any positive benefits of acupuncture surely have to be due to sticking needles in people rather than pre-scientific notiions of Qi, Yin and Yang or whatever.]]> http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15574 Stavros Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:24:01 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15574 Hi Gregg, thanks for sharing. It's good that you keep a cautious approach even after your positive results -the vast majority of people would immediately attribute treatment to ancient Chinese wisdom... "<b>But because of my own positive results I can’t help but wonder if there is more that these studies are not revealing</b>" I do not think so. There have been really many studies and trials on acupuncture, the majority of which point to the placebo effect and other non-specific effects from the needling -which you mention as well. "<b>One question I would be curious to see studied is a comparison of the sham method versus Chinese and Japanese style acupuncture.</b>" But the reviews mention a large number of trials that compare "real" to fake acupuncture and they didn't discover a difference! No matter where you put the needles, or even if you do not penetrate the skin, it makes no difference! Keep in mind that chronic conditions provide the most fertile ground for alternative treatments for a variety of reasons: regression to the mean and cyclic nature; placebo effect; the very subjective (and easily manipulated psychologically) nature of pain etc.
“But because of my own positive results I can’t help but wonder if there is more that these studies are not revealing”

I do not think so. There have been really many studies and trials on acupuncture, the majority of which point to the placebo effect and other non-specific effects from the needling -which you mention as well.

“One question I would be curious to see studied is a comparison of the sham method versus Chinese and Japanese style acupuncture.”

But the reviews mention a large number of trials that compare “real” to fake acupuncture and they didn’t discover a difference! No matter where you put the needles, or even if you do not penetrate the skin, it makes no difference!

Keep in mind that chronic conditions provide the most fertile ground for alternative treatments for a variety of reasons: regression to the mean and cyclic nature; placebo effect; the very subjective (and easily manipulated psychologically) nature of pain etc.]]> http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15564 Gregg Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:31:10 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15564 I was very interested to learn about these recent studies. I have been suffering from migraines for about 15 years. I have been to several specialists, had every diagnostic test and scan available and have been prescribed every drug available. I have even participated in experimental drug studies. None of the medication had good results. My doctors literally shrugged their shoulders and asked "you've had them all which one did you like the best?" Finally, in desperation I tried acupuncture. I was extremely skeptical and have always relied on science over "magic" but figured I didn't have anything to lose. My acupuncturist warned me that I would require a lot of frequent treatments in the beginning to have a good response. So, for the first three months I had a 30-45 minute session twice a week, then slowly tapered back the treatments over the past two years to my current routine of once every three weeks. My migraine attacks were 4-5 per week, each lasting 1-3 days and I would consistently rate my pain level at a 7. Since my acupuncture treatments I now have a migraine about once a week lasting 12-24 hours and my pain level is about a 3. It appears the studies are either point to a strong placebo effect or a connection to stimulating the nervous system with needles in general has an effect. But because of my own positive results I can't help but wonder if there is more that these studies are not revealing. One question I would be curious to see studied is a comparison of the sham method versus Chinese and Japanese style acupuncture. My practitioner is trained in the Japanese style and from what I understand there is a greater focus on very specific needle placement than with Chinese. Also, the Japanese style uses much finer needles (with no pain). I also wonder if the studies are long enough and intense enough to see the full effect of acupuncture treatments. As I mentioned earlier, it took a lot of initial treatments, followed by sustained routine for me to achieve the results I have seen. Is the placebo effect lasting or does it typically fade?
My acupuncturist warned me that I would require a lot of frequent treatments in the beginning to have a good response. So, for the first three months I had a 30-45 minute session twice a week, then slowly tapered back the treatments over the past two years to my current routine of once every three weeks.

My migraine attacks were 4-5 per week, each lasting 1-3 days and I would consistently rate my pain level at a 7. Since my acupuncture treatments I now have a migraine about once a week lasting 12-24 hours and my pain level is about a 3.

It appears the studies are either point to a strong placebo effect or a connection to stimulating the nervous system with needles in general has an effect. But because of my own positive results I can’t help but wonder if there is more that these studies are not revealing.

One question I would be curious to see studied is a comparison of the sham method versus Chinese and Japanese style acupuncture. My practitioner is trained in the Japanese style and from what I understand there is a greater focus on very specific needle placement than with Chinese. Also, the Japanese style uses much finer needles (with no pain). I also wonder if the studies are long enough and intense enough to see the full effect of acupuncture treatments. As I mentioned earlier, it took a lot of initial treatments, followed by sustained routine for me to achieve the results I have seen. Is the placebo effect lasting or does it typically fade?]]> http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/comment-page-1/#comment-15533 Journey through a Burning Mind » Acupuncture (Real or Fake it … Thu, 22 Jan 2009 04:45:06 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2009/01/22/acupuncture-real-or-fake-it-doesnt-matter-good-for-headaches-and-migraines/#comment-15533 [...] unknown wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptTwo new Cochrane Systematic Reviews have just been published (January 2009) looking into the prophylactic effects of acupuncture on tension-type headaches [1], and migraines [2]. Klaus Linde (famous for his research in Complementary and … [...]