Comments on: Religious propaganda in the tube? http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/ Discussions on science, skepticism, pseudoscience; trips on the borders of religion and science; brief adventures in hi-fi; this is a Journey through a Burning Mind... Sat, 19 May 2012 17:13:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: IL http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-34869 IL Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:45:49 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-34869 Dear Stavros, You said that you are interested in the physical sciences, pseudoscience, and the borders of religion and science. I guess you must be reading lots of books to gain more knowledge about these subjects. Here is one of them "Jesus under fire". the editors are Michael J. Wilkins, a dean of a faculty and professor, and J. P. Moreland, a distinguished professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology. Enjoy the reading.
You said that you are interested in the physical sciences, pseudoscience, and the borders of religion and science. I guess you must be reading lots of books to gain more knowledge about these subjects. Here is one of them “Jesus under fire”. the editors are Michael J. Wilkins, a dean of a faculty and professor, and J. P. Moreland, a distinguished professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology.
Enjoy the reading.]]> By: Stavros http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-12396 Stavros Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:37:01 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-12396 Untitled1: I can see you were interested in Sigur Ros by your name :-) I agree with most of what you say. <blockquote>religious philosophy [...] I consider it very useful as a moral guidelines for an average man. </blockquote> I am not sure about this one (<a href="/2008/02/29/do-we-need-god-to-dictate-our-morality/" rel="nofollow">see here</a>). Religious scriptures contain lots of violence and discrimination and they're open to interpretations. Therefore, it is easy for people to become violent just because their God "told" them to. I guess the qualification of "average" might be enough to prevent this in some cases, but we still have the problem of all those "below average" :-) <blockquote>coming from the country where influence of catholic church on a social life </blockquote> I am curious: which country would that be? I assume you mean England (judging by the Tesco reference)? <blockquote>institutional and ideologised religion brings far more evil that good (in terms of catholic morality). And this self-denial makes it all even more miserable </blockquote> Could not agree more.

I agree with most of what you say.
religious philosophy [...] I consider it very useful as a moral guidelines for an average man.

I am not sure about this one (see here). Religious scriptures contain lots of violence and discrimination and they’re open to interpretations. Therefore, it is easy for people to become violent just because their God “told” them to. I guess the qualification of “average” might be enough to prevent this in some cases, but we still have the problem of all those “below average” :-)
coming from the country where influence of catholic church on a social life

I am curious: which country would that be? I assume you mean England (judging by the Tesco reference)?
institutional and ideologised religion brings far more evil that good (in terms of catholic morality). And this self-denial makes it all even more miserable

Could not agree more.]]> By: Untitled1 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-12390 Untitled1 Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:37:52 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-12390 I've come across this whole discussion here accidentally (was far more interested in Sigur Ros), but now I have to admit got quite indigant with what clearly is the catholic propaganda. Especially when everyone around goes absolutely paranoid about political correctness and ideological references where there's no place for them. Plus the verses on those posters lacked any kind of informative value, just a selection of words that,separated from the context,mean nothing but nothing at all. But that's what all the worshippers of any god tend to do - throw some empty phrases at non-believers hoping to convince them...what only proves they have nothing more to say, if there was any message they got from their religion and would like to share with the others,I guess they would use that as an argument or explanation (unless it's top secret and everyone has to be torrmented with continuous blah blah blah ;) Myself, I'm not against the religious philosophy,moreover, I consider it very useful as a moral guidelines for an average man. But! But even that average human creature should always stay aware that all the stories told in a bible or any equivalent of it in case of other faiths,are metaphores, pictures which were created to make those ideas of how to cope with all the day-to-day human problems and joys, and how to lead your life fully but in sort of harmony with the surroundings,more approachable,possible to understand for everyone,since they apply to everyone. Simple as it is,and not that stupid. Unfortunately, the believers are the weakest link as they cannot just accept the fact that: a)their faith is not any better that faiths of others, including Hare Krishnas and worshipers of Tesco low fat cottage cheese. b) they may be as wrong as anyone also. c) 'good life' is a reward in itself, and there's no heaven or hell and jury to judge you. One judges 'the reality' themselves and live their lifes accordingly, and how they live them = what the get.Isn't it what was meant by the idea of free will?? And also,coming from the country where influence of catholic church on a social life results in all sorts of paranoias,I have to say that institutional and ideologised religion brings far more evil that good (in terms of catholic morality). And this self-denial makes it all even more miserable. People....
Myself, I’m not against the religious philosophy,moreover, I consider it very useful as a moral guidelines for an average man. But! But even that average human creature should always stay aware that all the stories told in a bible or any equivalent of it in case of other faiths,are metaphores, pictures which were created to make those ideas of how to cope with all the day-to-day human problems and joys, and how to lead your life fully but in sort of harmony with the surroundings,more approachable,possible to understand for everyone,since they apply to everyone. Simple as it is,and not that stupid. Unfortunately, the believers are the weakest link as they cannot just accept the fact that: a)their faith is not any better that faiths of others, including Hare Krishnas and worshipers of Tesco low fat cottage cheese. b) they may be as wrong as anyone also. c) ‘good life’ is a reward in itself, and there’s no heaven or hell and jury to judge you. One judges ‘the reality’ themselves and live their lifes accordingly, and how they live them = what the get.Isn’t it what was meant by the idea of free will??
And also,coming from the country where influence of catholic church on a social life results in all sorts of paranoias,I have to say that institutional and ideologised religion brings far more evil that good (in terms of catholic morality). And this self-denial makes it all even more miserable. People….]]> By: Stavros http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-11788 Stavros Sun, 16 Nov 2008 00:40:12 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-11788 Jonty, check out <a href="/2008/01/19/common-fallacies-of-logic-and-rhetoric-by-carl-sagan/" rel="nofollow">common fallacies list (by Carl Sagan)</a> if you want. There is a number of other sites that keep such elaborate lists of fallacious arguments and inspired by your idea I will try to collect them and create a post and a page to host them here as well. Cheers common fallacies list (by Carl Sagan) if you want.

There is a number of other sites that keep such elaborate lists of fallacious arguments and inspired by your idea I will try to collect them and create a post and a page to host them here as well.

Cheers]]> By: Jonty H. Campbell http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-11787 Jonty H. Campbell Sun, 16 Nov 2008 00:35:49 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-11787 What we require here on this site is an easy to understand guide to logical fallacies. There's so many but I tend to foget them. Circular logic is one xist fallacy: Jesus existed and is alive today because the bible tells me so. Because the bible says so, jesus existed and is alive today. Right. That means I can also state Santa Claus because the Santa book says so. Because the Santa book says so, then Santa Claus exists. If you disagree, then Why?... (and don't say "oh that is different", as it is not, both are books say that both exist[ed]! )
Right. That means I can also state Santa Claus because the Santa book says so. Because the Santa book says so, then Santa Claus exists.

If you disagree, then




Why?…

(and don’t say “oh that is different”, as it is not, both are books say that both exist[ed]! )]]> By: Jonty H. Campbell http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-11782 Jonty H. Campbell Sat, 15 Nov 2008 23:49:50 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-11782 How can you ask a dead Rabbi, what he did for you? Much research on the jesus/ universal sacrificed king mythos is discussed on the anthropology site jesusneverexisted.com
Much research on the jesus/ universal sacrificed king mythos is discussed on the anthropology site

jesusneverexisted.com]]> By: Stavros http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-10294 Stavros Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:48:19 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-10294 Onewhoknows, you are a lucky one! Your comment has been promoted to a <a href="/2008/10/16/jesus-vs-the-flying-spaghetti-monster-repent-repent-i-tell-you/" rel="nofollow">full post</a> alongside my reply. Have fun! full post alongside my reply. Have fun!]]> By: Onewhoknows http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-10275 Onewhoknows Thu, 16 Oct 2008 01:41:51 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-10275 One day you will give an account to Him who created you. I feel sorry for you that you do not believe in Jesus. When your Soul is eternally separated from Him, you will wish you had listened. God is Real, Heaven is real.It is reserved for those who have accepted the free gift of salavation. satan is real & hell is real! it is reserved for satan and his followers to torment people like you for eternity. I pray you will not go there because there you will have no light, love , peace, or any relief from pain and you will be tormented forever! You will want to die but you can't and you won't. Look at the World, see the signs. Pray that God open your heart ,eyes & ears. What have you got to lose? If you are not a coward you will ask him to reveal himself to you. What have you got to lose but perhaps your own soul? I dare you to ask him and mean it with all your heart! He WILL show you He is real! If he is not than what has you lost? I am challenging you, so go ahead..if you are not to scared to find out the truth. God is Real, Heaven is real.It is reserved for those who have accepted the free gift of salavation. satan is real & hell is real! it is reserved for satan and his followers to torment people like you for eternity. I pray you will not go there because there you will have no light, love , peace, or any relief from pain and you will be tormented forever! You will want to die but you can’t and you won’t.
Look at the World, see the signs. Pray that God open your heart ,eyes & ears. What have you got to lose? If you are not a coward you will ask him to reveal himself to you. What have you got to lose but perhaps your own soul? I dare you to ask him and mean it with all your heart! He WILL show you He is real!
If he is not than what has you lost?
I am challenging you, so go ahead..if you are not to scared to find out the truth.]]> By: Stavros http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-2492 Stavros Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:51:20 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-2492 Segunsho, this is a straw man argument: I never compared Christianity with Nazism. I merely provided a more extreme case in order to emphasize my point. Also, there are limited resources to be allocated and science cannot afford to test every implausible claims! True, some very weird claims might end up being true, but we still need a means to identify plausible and testable hypotheses to research. And the means is called "evidence" -as well as scientific plausibility.
Also, there are limited resources to be allocated and science cannot afford to test every implausible claims! True, some very weird claims might end up being true, but we still need a means to identify plausible and testable hypotheses to research. And the means is called “evidence” -as well as scientific plausibility.]]> By: Segunsho http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-2487 Segunsho Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:59:30 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-2487 I hope your claim to speak for those you beleive would be "derailed" by this propaganda is not really a personal issue against freedom of religion,maybe you've forgotten that "Nazi"propaganda did not give people any room to make a choice.Comparing christianity to "Nazi" ideology is really misplaced there is no basis for such comparision.The claims of Jesus about himself was challenged and still being challenged even to this day so nothing anyone says would put an end to it,What the claim encourages for anyone that would accept the invitation is to search the scriptures has would any reasonable scientist investigate and research claims. By: Stavros http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-2453 Stavros Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:44:38 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-2453 Jay, I am a huge fan of free speech and free press no question about that. I do not think I have said anywhere that the ad should be taken down (although I do indeed think that would be for the best). But that does not mean that it is not a piece of proselytizing propaganda, and as such it is dangerous for some more vulnerable people for the reasons I have mentioned many times thus far. Then you say: <blockquote>it is a lot better for someone to believe and follow something that helps them to have peace and life a healthy life than not to believe anything and lead a disorderly and riotious life.</blockquote> which is of course a false dichotomy! Further it seems to be a bit far from the truth: non believers have one less reason to separate themselves from others and thus one less reason to discriminate. Further, they do not blindly follow what God tells them to do, which in almost all cases includes some form of violence over believers of other Gods. The history of religions is full of violence and discrimination -as are the "holy" scriptures of course.
Then you say:
it is a lot better for someone to believe and follow something that helps them to have peace and life a healthy life than not to believe anything and lead a disorderly and riotious life.

which is of course a false dichotomy!

Further it seems to be a bit far from the truth: non believers have one less reason to separate themselves from others and thus one less reason to discriminate. Further, they do not blindly follow what God tells them to do, which in almost all cases includes some form of violence over believers of other Gods. The history of religions is full of violence and discrimination -as are the “holy” scriptures of course.]]> By: Jay http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-2447 Jay Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:57:26 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-2447 Stravos, if the Nazi decides to rise again,and actually does, there would be people who would follow in that direction out of their own free wills. So,I think it is about having enough room for as many beliefs as are being displayed. And if Nazi claims to be the only way or the right religion, I am sure that no one would be forced in this day and age against their will to believe in it. Therefore, let as many who groups, sects and people who have any beliefs or ideas to share come on board. The choice is purely based on idividual at the end of the day. By: Jay http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-2446 Jay Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:51:33 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-2446 Stravos, you will agree with me that a lot has been done to make Christianity history in this nation. One thing I will say here is that not everything about this life and nature is rational.So if anyone thinks that some sayings of any particular religion is irrational,then I suggest such fellow ignore them. However,you will agree with me that it is a lot better for someone to believe and follow something that helps them to have peace and life a healthy life than not to believe anything and lead a disorderly and riotious life. I'd like to say here that since this is a so called 'politically correct' society, then room should be made for all beliefs system to be propagated. People could then decide what to believe and what not to believe. However,you will agree with me that it is a lot better for someone to believe and follow something that helps them to have peace and life a healthy life than not to believe anything and lead a disorderly and riotious life.
I’d like to say here that since this is a so called ‘politically correct’ society, then room should be made for all beliefs system to be propagated. People could then decide what to believe and what not to believe.]]> By: Stavros http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-2440 Stavros Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:34:47 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-2440 Segunsho, whatever you call it, it is still propaganda, and it is strong enough to derail people from logic and reason by accepting the Bible's (or whichever scripture's) word as the absolute truth. Would you like to see a Nazi's ad in the tube calling for people to unite under a new Fuhrer because his word is the only truth? Aren't such unsubstantiated and arrogant claims a bit too much? And of course my opinion or comments will not change its validity, and neither will yours. And its validity is zero, nada, niente, nothing, until someone actually provides some evidence...
Would you like to see a Nazi’s ad in the tube calling for people to unite under a new Fuhrer because his word is the only truth? Aren’t such unsubstantiated and arrogant claims a bit too much?

And of course my opinion or comments will not change its validity, and neither will yours. And its validity is zero, nada, niente, nothing, until someone actually provides some evidence…]]> By: Segunsho http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-2438 Segunsho Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:58:27 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-2438 The whole idea of proclaiming the gospel of salvation is not to get into intellectual discourse or debate but to be open minded enough to either choose to accept the claims of Jesus or not to accept it.It's simply a matter of choice and its your choice to either read or ignore the advert on the tube or buses.But beleive you me your comments or opinion does not change the validity of gospel of salvation. and its your choice to either read or ignore the advert on the tube or buses.But beleive you me your comments or opinion does not change the validity of gospel of salvation.]]> By: Stavros http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-2340 Stavros Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:18:05 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-2340 Jay, which other beliefs would you say are favored (as opposed to Christianity)? It is my opinion, which is also evident in this web site, that no irrational beliefs at all should be propagated in our society. Anyone can believe whatever he/she wants as long as it is something personal and it doesn't affect in any way the lifes of the people around him/her. The specific sign is a form of propaganda and it can easily affect people of certain emotional state or educational level. And believe me, I could not care less if it was another religious organization! All I care about is propagation of belief systems.
It is my opinion, which is also evident in this web site, that no irrational beliefs at all should be propagated in our society.

Anyone can believe whatever he/she wants as long as it is something personal and it doesn’t affect in any way the lifes of the people around him/her.

The specific sign is a form of propaganda and it can easily affect people of certain emotional state or educational level. And believe me, I could not care less if it was another religious organization! All I care about is propagation of belief systems.]]> By: Jay http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-2338 Jay Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:06:16 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-2338 It's simply scary how everything is done in our society today to accommodate all other beliefs irrespective of how dangerous they may be but Christianity which seeks nothing but the good of mankind is so readily rejected and made to seem like the worse religion in the world. What a shame!! We have sold our birth right and clamouring for lifeless ideas instead. Anyway, I have been around long enough as well as read widely to know that the truth is constantly under attacks. Thank God that we have a God who is patient and actually doesn't need any help to fight for Himself. Whether anyone believes it or not; or some sect argue and make so much noise, Jesus will remain Lord!!!! Whether anyone believes it or not; or some sect argue and make so much noise, Jesus will remain Lord!!!!]]> By: David http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-1897 David Mon, 19 May 2008 17:13:59 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-1897 Pieter You still haven't explained how "He was killed on the cross.../He died for our sins" was a meaningful act or what it actually means. You say that salvation will only come after we have "...chang[ed our] life style...". If we follow this concept and are saved as a result, in what way was His death a necessary part of the equation? It's mildly amusing how the Bible is used to prove itself. You state that "...reliable historical source[u]s[/u] ..." (i.e, the Bible) prove your point of view. What other contemporary sources back up the events described in the Bible? The Bible is a collection of writings from many authors, rarely contemporary to the events being written about. Name for me [u]ANY[/u] event described in the Bible that was written by an actual participant/eyewitness. Even when Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote of the same events, they differed greatly in the details. If the various writers' conspiracy theories of the Kennedy assassanation were collected into a single volume, would it then become the "truth"? It's all well and good for you to believe what you want but, to be sure, it's really just a matter of Faith, not of logical rigor. Some people have faith in the existence of UFOs; does that make UFOs real?
You still haven’t explained how “He was killed on the cross…/He died for our sins” was a meaningful act or what it actually means.

You say that salvation will only come after we have “…chang[ed our] life style…”. If we follow this concept and are saved as a result, in what way was His death a necessary part of the equation?

It’s mildly amusing how the Bible is used to prove itself. You state that “…reliable historical source[u]s[/u] …” (i.e, the Bible) prove your point of view. What other contemporary sources back up the events described in the Bible?

The Bible is a collection of writings from many authors, rarely contemporary to the events being written about.

Name for me [u]ANY[/u] event described in the Bible that was written by an actual participant/eyewitness. Even when Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote of the same events, they differed greatly in the details.

If the various writers’ conspiracy theories of the Kennedy assassanation were collected into a single volume, would it then become the “truth”?

It’s all well and good for you to believe what you want but, to be sure, it’s really just a matter of Faith, not of logical rigor. Some people have faith in the existence of UFOs; does that make UFOs real?]]> By: Stavros http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-1894 Stavros Mon, 19 May 2008 14:11:57 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-1894 Pieter, we are going round in circles. First, it is in our human nature to be sinful if we accept God's definitions of sin. So, we either feel guilt for actually being humans, or we are indeed committing a lot of sins all the time. But in the latter case Jesus has already forgiven us with his death for us. Not much sense there is it? Second, how do we know that the New Testament is the word of God? We don't. And for all we know, it was actually written by humans. With all their flaws and limited knowledge of their time. It is not a coincidence that both the Old and the New Testament are terrible moral guides, full of madness, racism, sexism, violence and lots of other nasty things... Plus, one cannot help by notice how vain and arrogant God is, reflected through the first four commandments... Sorry, I do not want to be associated with such a God.
First, it is in our human nature to be sinful if we accept God’s definitions of sin. So, we either feel guilt for actually being humans, or we are indeed committing a lot of sins all the time. But in the latter case Jesus has already forgiven us with his death for us. Not much sense there is it?

Second, how do we know that the New Testament is the word of God? We don’t. And for all we know, it was actually written by humans. With all their flaws and limited knowledge of their time.

It is not a coincidence that both the Old and the New Testament are terrible moral guides, full of madness, racism, sexism, violence and lots of other nasty things…

Plus, one cannot help by notice how vain and arrogant God is, reflected through the first four commandments… Sorry, I do not want to be associated with such a God.]]> By: Pieter http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/comment-page-1/#comment-1893 Pieter Mon, 19 May 2008 14:00:14 +0000 http://www.isaiadis.com/2008/04/21/religious-propaganda-in-the-tube/#comment-1893 Hi David. the scriptures tell us that if a person accepts that it is indeed true that Jesus died for their sins one other thing needs to take place. That person needs to decide to change direction by changng its life style abstaining from everything the Bible calls sin and being immersed in water as a personal statement of one's faith and life long commitment to Jesus Christ. Than it says "and you will be saved" as in Acts 2:38. Nobody gets saved by just asking for it and doing nothing else. People get saved by believing in Jesus for who He says He is and what He did for them and by expressing their believe by changing their lifestyle according to what God says in the New Testament.
the scriptures tell us that if a person accepts that it is indeed true that Jesus died for their sins one other thing needs to take place. That person needs to decide to change direction by changng its life style abstaining from everything the Bible calls sin and being immersed in water as a personal statement of one’s faith and life long commitment to Jesus Christ. Than it says “and you will be saved” as in Acts 2:38. Nobody gets saved by just asking for it and doing nothing else. People get saved by believing in Jesus for who He says He is and what He did for them and by expressing their believe by changing their lifestyle according to what God says in the New Testament.]]>