Religious propaganda in the tube?
This is what a saw in an advertisement in the London Tube yesterday:
The scripture says: For the law was given through Moses; God’s unfailing love and faithfulness came through Jesus Christ.

No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, he has told us about him.

-John 1: 17,18.
www.JESUSLambOfGod.org
Well, leaving aside for a moment the circularity of this verse (no one has seen God, but God told us about him) part of the totally absurd Holy Trinity concept as it is, I find it deeply annoying. It might not affect me of course, as I am very clear with my (non) beliefs, but this can be considered a propaganda and can affect more fragile, undecided, or desperate people (hey! if you add scientifically illiterate in there you get almost the whole range of religious people!).

Actually I find it very strange that no other religious nut group organization has complained about this yet! You know, because it hurts their feelings and is offensive to their own white bearded guy in the sky

Having a look at the site (www.JESUSLambOfGod.org) we find what it is about (like we could not guess):
The purpose of this site (and the Scriptures selected) is to proclaim JESUS, His words, and that He has done for everyone, including you
I am sorry what exactly did he do for me you say? Oh right. He condemned me to a life full of regrets and doubts because I was unfortunate enough to be born a human being
30 Responses to this post
You are right saying that the purpose of the site (JESUSLambofGod.org)is to proclaim the Jesus (The Truth) is Words, and what He has done for everyone. However you have completely missed what He actually did for you. You should directly ask Him. Also whether you believe in it or not, it does not change anything to the Truth. Hope you will realise what is the Truth before it is too late.
Il, thanks for the comment (I guess).

Can you please tell me what he did for me so that I avoid the trouble of having to ask him directly -which is something I obviously don’t know how to do otherwise I would have already done.
…whether you believe in it or not, it does not change anything to the Truth.

I could not agree with you more on this one. Whether *you* believe in Jesus, God, or whatever else, it doesn’t make it true! And certainly not any more true than Allah, Santa Claus, the Celestial Teapot, the twelve Gods of Olympus etc.
Hope you will realise what is the Truth before it is too late.

I am fully aware that I will probably never find out what the truth is about our Universe. However, I am also aware that I will keep getting closer and closer with the help of Science.

It seems to me though, that you are claiming to already know the truth. Isn’t that just a little bit arrogant?
Hi Stavros,

you asked what Jesus did for you. Well reliable historical sources clearly inicate that He took your place when He was killed on the cross with the express intent that you will not have to undergo the same fate as He did i.e. experiencing death which is being seperated from God. This simple fact of His death has much greater ramifications but that is the answer to your question in a nutshell.
You may not like this answer but I am confident that you will find out that this to be true for a simple reason. Authentic christian faith is believing what you can not see. However christian faith is also based on historical facts that have equal weight with any other historical facts such as Nero poisoned his step-brother Britannicus during dinner. Just as you decide to believe that Nero poisened his step-brother which you didn’t see christians believe that Jesus is God, died on a cross was raised from the dead, was seen by over 500 eye witnesses at one time and ascended up to heaven. They believe this because it is something that has been observed by multiple eye-witnesses and therefore a historical fact.
The christians who experienced these events first-hand lead explemparly lives of being honest and truthful and willingly gave their lives to attest the truthfulness and factfulness of these events when they were forced to recant what they saw or believed.
Once cognizant of the historical validity to these events a person chooses to believe or disbelief i.e. accept or reject the evidence that is available.
It is very important that someone is willing to consider these things rather than act from a preconceived closed position that is so narrow minded that it lashes out at what is said without ever coming to calm and clear evaluation of the evidence that is presented.
What is required is to be willing to consider the evidence and make a verdict. Of course not being willing to consider the evidence is not exacly a defendable position.

Best wishes,

Pieter
Oh come one Pieter! You make some very bold and unsubstantiated claims here!

Reliable sources say that he took *my* place?!?

Then, “…death [] is being separated from God“? No Pieter it is not. You may believe that this is the case because it says so in the Bible, but unfortunately it is not so.

Also, people saw Jesus being crucified, and no one ever saw him resurrect! All they saw was an empty tomb (and even that as well as many other of your “facts” are disputed). Oh, and by the way, Nero might have poisoned Britannicus but no one ever claimed that Britannicus was subsequently raised from the dead! Can you not see a small difference in these two “historical facts”?

Then you go on to say that “The christians who experienced these events first-hand lead explemplary lives…” where did you get that from? I will tell you: from the bible! This is only circular reasoning Pieter! It doesn’t help at all!

You also mention the word “evidence” which is really funny when talking about God and Jesus. While many accept the historical validity of Jesus, that has absolutely nothing to do with the truth value of God, the miracles performed by Jesus, the holy trinity and other such concepts, etc.

A two thousand year old book, written some centuries after Jesus died, based on anecdotal stories of his supporters, and full of so many science-contradicting elements, is *not* evidence. I am not sure what you learned in school though.
Hi Stavros,

I just attempted to answer your question about what Jesus did for you. Sorry if it wasn’t clear to you, I tried to make it as clear as I could.

Since you used the word ‘bold unSUBSTANC(E)iate’ in your sentence may I bring this bible verse to your attention as it speaks about the main requirement to obtain knowledge about God? “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.” Hebrews chapter 11 verse 1 & 6.

Kind regards and success with your career,

Pieter
(hey! if you add scientifically illiterate in there you get almost the whole range of religious people!).

This kind of accusation is ‘hurtful’.

First of all, define what do you mean by ’scientifically illiterate’ ? Do you really need an academic title in science to fit the shoes?
OR.. if someone is skeptical about the theory of evolution than that person is just ignorance?

Secondly, why is it ‘wrong’ to have a faith and believe in God? Because you cannot test God in a test tube? Isn’t it arrogant to think that you are more superior because you don’t believe in God?

Lastly..a suicidal kind of life is definitly not what Jesus has done for us. How do you get this idea, I wonder..

Cheers
Oh come on Diah, you should know better when I try to add a touch of exaggeration! Besides, I mention “almost”. And it is not an accusation!

Of course you do not need a degree but merely a good understanding of basic scientific concepts, a critical mind and a good logical circuit ;-)

Being skeptical is obviously a good thing, but you have to know where to apply your skeptic mind and know when you have to accept or reject certain ideas.

Second, I never said it is wrong to believe in God. It is the side effects of the organized fashion of belief that bother me. And of course I never said I am superior to anyone.

I also never said suicidal. But it is true that in almost all religions you get all the benefits only in the afterlife. And in typical fashion you are punished for doing things that are absolutely in human nature -i.e. for being human. And this, coupled with a dosage of goo old-fashioned manipulation, does indeed make people suicidal at times.
A bit more about the good of religion here: “Some Thoughts on the ‘Good of Religion’”
I think the advertising for jesus lamb of god is quite controversial. don’t get me wrong i’m not a religon hater or anything however i think if ‘hare krisha hare krishna’ or ‘allah the benificient the merciful’ was written in the tube there would have been a massive out rage of this. i dont agree or disagree with it i’m just stating that religous advertisment can be threatening to some people
Pieter says, “He was killed on the cross with the express intent that you will not have to undergo the same fate as He did i.e. experiencing death which is being seperated from God. ”

This is more commonly described as, “He died for our sins”. What the heck does this mean anyway? If this is accepted as true, then our sins are already forgiven and we don’t have to worry about anything we to to one another now. We waste our time praying for salvation because we are already saved. So what is the point of religion anymore?

Thanks, Jesus. Now I can do what I want and I’ll see you later.
Hi David.

the scriptures tell us that if a person accepts that it is indeed true that Jesus died for their sins one other thing needs to take place. That person needs to decide to change direction by changng its life style abstaining from everything the Bible calls sin and being immersed in water as a personal statement of one’s faith and life long commitment to Jesus Christ. Than it says “and you will be saved” as in Acts 2:38. Nobody gets saved by just asking for it and doing nothing else. People get saved by believing in Jesus for who He says He is and what He did for them and by expressing their believe by changing their lifestyle according to what God says in the New Testament.
Pieter, we are going round in circles.

First, it is in our human nature to be sinful if we accept God’s definitions of sin. So, we either feel guilt for actually being humans, or we are indeed committing a lot of sins all the time. But in the latter case Jesus has already forgiven us with his death for us. Not much sense there is it?

Second, how do we know that the New Testament is the word of God? We don’t. And for all we know, it was actually written by humans. With all their flaws and limited knowledge of their time.

It is not a coincidence that both the Old and the New Testament are terrible moral guides, full of madness, racism, sexism, violence and lots of other nasty things…

Plus, one cannot help by notice how vain and arrogant God is, reflected through the first four commandments… Sorry, I do not want to be associated with such a God.
Pieter

You still haven’t explained how “He was killed on the cross…/He died for our sins” was a meaningful act or what it actually means.

You say that salvation will only come after we have “…chang[ed our] life style…”. If we follow this concept and are saved as a result, in what way was His death a necessary part of the equation?

It’s mildly amusing how the Bible is used to prove itself. You state that “…reliable historical source[u]s[/u] …” (i.e, the Bible) prove your point of view. What other contemporary sources back up the events described in the Bible?

The Bible is a collection of writings from many authors, rarely contemporary to the events being written about.

Name for me [u]ANY[/u] event described in the Bible that was written by an actual participant/eyewitness. Even when Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote of the same events, they differed greatly in the details.

If the various writers’ conspiracy theories of the Kennedy assassanation were collected into a single volume, would it then become the “truth”?

It’s all well and good for you to believe what you want but, to be sure, it’s really just a matter of Faith, not of logical rigor. Some people have faith in the existence of UFOs; does that make UFOs real?
It’s simply scary how everything is done in our society today to accommodate all other beliefs irrespective of how dangerous they may be but Christianity which seeks nothing but the good of mankind is so readily rejected and made to seem like the worse religion in the world. What a shame!! We have sold our birth right and clamouring for lifeless ideas instead. Anyway, I have been around long enough as well as read widely to know that the truth is constantly under attacks. Thank God that we have a God who is patient and actually doesn’t need any help to fight for Himself.
Whether anyone believes it or not; or some sect argue and make so much noise, Jesus will remain Lord!!!!
Jay, which other beliefs would you say are favored (as opposed to Christianity)?

It is my opinion, which is also evident in this web site, that no irrational beliefs at all should be propagated in our society.

Anyone can believe whatever he/she wants as long as it is something personal and it doesn’t affect in any way the lifes of the people around him/her.

The specific sign is a form of propaganda and it can easily affect people of certain emotional state or educational level. And believe me, I could not care less if it was another religious organization! All I care about is propagation of belief systems.
The whole idea of proclaiming the gospel of salvation is not to get into intellectual discourse or debate but to be open minded enough to either choose to accept the claims of Jesus or not to accept it.It’s simply a matter of choice
and its your choice to either read or ignore the advert on the tube or buses.But beleive you me your comments or opinion does not change the validity of gospel of salvation.
Segunsho, whatever you call it, it is still propaganda, and it is strong enough to derail people from logic and reason by accepting the Bible’s (or whichever scripture’s) word as the absolute truth.

Would you like to see a Nazi’s ad in the tube calling for people to unite under a new Fuhrer because his word is the only truth? Aren’t such unsubstantiated and arrogant claims a bit too much?

And of course my opinion or comments will not change its validity, and neither will yours. And its validity is zero, nada, niente, nothing, until someone actually provides some evidence…
Stravos, you will agree with me that a lot has been done to make Christianity history in this nation. One thing I will say here is that not everything about this life and nature is rational.So if anyone thinks that some sayings of any particular religion is irrational,then I suggest such fellow ignore them.
However,you will agree with me that it is a lot better for someone to believe and follow something that helps them to have peace and life a healthy life than not to believe anything and lead a disorderly and riotious life.
I’d like to say here that since this is a so called ‘politically correct’ society, then room should be made for all beliefs system to be propagated. People could then decide what to believe and what not to believe.
Stravos, if the Nazi decides to rise again,and actually does, there would be people who would follow in that direction out of their own free wills. So,I think it is about having enough room for as many beliefs as are being displayed. And if Nazi claims to be the only way or the right religion, I am sure that no one would be forced in this day and age against their will to believe in it. Therefore, let as many who groups, sects and people who have any beliefs or ideas to share come on board. The choice is purely based on idividual at the end of the day.
Jay, I am a huge fan of free speech and free press no question about that. I do not think I have said anywhere that the ad should be taken down (although I do indeed think that would be for the best). But that does not mean that it is not a piece of proselytizing propaganda, and as such it is dangerous for some more vulnerable people for the reasons I have mentioned many times thus far.

Then you say:
it is a lot better for someone to believe and follow something that helps them to have peace and life a healthy life than not to believe anything and lead a disorderly and riotious life.

which is of course a false dichotomy!

Further it seems to be a bit far from the truth: non believers have one less reason to separate themselves from others and thus one less reason to discriminate. Further, they do not blindly follow what God tells them to do, which in almost all cases includes some form of violence over believers of other Gods. The history of religions is full of violence and discrimination -as are the “holy” scriptures of course.
I hope your claim to speak for those you beleive would be “derailed” by this propaganda is not really a personal issue against freedom of religion,maybe you’ve forgotten that “Nazi”propaganda did not give people any room to make a choice.Comparing christianity to “Nazi” ideology is really misplaced there is no basis for such comparision.The claims of Jesus about himself was challenged and still being challenged even to this day so nothing anyone says would put an end to it,What the claim encourages for anyone that would accept the invitation is to search the scriptures has would any reasonable scientist investigate and research claims.
Segunsho, this is a straw man argument: I never compared Christianity with Nazism. I merely provided a more extreme case in order to emphasize my point.

Also, there are limited resources to be allocated and science cannot afford to test every implausible claims! True, some very weird claims might end up being true, but we still need a means to identify plausible and testable hypotheses to research. And the means is called “evidence” -as well as scientific plausibility.
One day you will give an account to Him who created you. I feel sorry for you that you do not believe in Jesus. When your Soul is eternally separated from Him, you will wish you had listened.
God is Real, Heaven is real.It is reserved for those who have accepted the free gift of salavation. satan is real & hell is real! it is reserved for satan and his followers to torment people like you for eternity. I pray you will not go there because there you will have no light, love , peace, or any relief from pain and you will be tormented forever! You will want to die but you can’t and you won’t.
Look at the World, see the signs. Pray that God open your heart ,eyes & ears. What have you got to lose? If you are not a coward you will ask him to reveal himself to you. What have you got to lose but perhaps your own soul? I dare you to ask him and mean it with all your heart! He WILL show you He is real!
If he is not than what has you lost?
I am challenging you, so go ahead..if you are not to scared to find out the truth.
Onewhoknows, you are a lucky one! Your comment has been promoted to a full post alongside my reply. Have fun!
How can you ask a dead Rabbi, what he did for you?

Much research on the jesus/ universal sacrificed king mythos is discussed on the anthropology site

jesusneverexisted.com
What we require here on this site is an easy to understand guide to logical fallacies. There’s so many but I tend to foget them. Circular logic is one xist fallacy: Jesus existed and is alive today because the bible tells me so. Because the bible says so, jesus existed and is alive today.

Right. That means I can also state Santa Claus because the Santa book says so. Because the Santa book says so, then Santa Claus exists.

If you disagree, then




Why?…

(and don’t say “oh that is different”, as it is not, both are books say that both exist[ed]! )
Jonty, check out common fallacies list (by Carl Sagan) if you want.

There is a number of other sites that keep such elaborate lists of fallacious arguments and inspired by your idea I will try to collect them and create a post and a page to host them here as well.

Cheers
I’ve come across this whole discussion here accidentally (was far more interested in Sigur Ros), but now I have to admit got quite indigant with what clearly is the catholic propaganda. Especially when everyone around goes absolutely paranoid about political correctness and ideological references where there’s no place for them. Plus the verses on those posters lacked any kind of informative value, just a selection of words that,separated from the context,mean nothing but nothing at all. But that’s what all the worshippers of any god tend to do - throw some empty phrases at non-believers hoping to convince them…what only proves they have nothing more to say, if there was any message they got from their religion and would like to share with the others,I guess they would use that as an argument or explanation (unless it’s top secret and everyone has to be torrmented with continuous blah blah blah ;)
Myself, I’m not against the religious philosophy,moreover, I consider it very useful as a moral guidelines for an average man. But! But even that average human creature should always stay aware that all the stories told in a bible or any equivalent of it in case of other faiths,are metaphores, pictures which were created to make those ideas of how to cope with all the day-to-day human problems and joys, and how to lead your life fully but in sort of harmony with the surroundings,more approachable,possible to understand for everyone,since they apply to everyone. Simple as it is,and not that stupid. Unfortunately, the believers are the weakest link as they cannot just accept the fact that: a)their faith is not any better that faiths of others, including Hare Krishnas and worshipers of Tesco low fat cottage cheese. b) they may be as wrong as anyone also. c) ‘good life’ is a reward in itself, and there’s no heaven or hell and jury to judge you. One judges ‘the reality’ themselves and live their lifes accordingly, and how they live them = what the get.Isn’t it what was meant by the idea of free will??
And also,coming from the country where influence of catholic church on a social life results in all sorts of paranoias,I have to say that institutional and ideologised religion brings far more evil that good (in terms of catholic morality). And this self-denial makes it all even more miserable. People….
Untitled1: I can see you were interested in Sigur Ros by your name :-)

I agree with most of what you say.
religious philosophy [...] I consider it very useful as a moral guidelines for an average man.

I am not sure about this one (see here). Religious scriptures contain lots of violence and discrimination and they’re open to interpretations. Therefore, it is easy for people to become violent just because their God “told” them to. I guess the qualification of “average” might be enough to prevent this in some cases, but we still have the problem of all those “below average” :-)
coming from the country where influence of catholic church on a social life

I am curious: which country would that be? I assume you mean England (judging by the Tesco reference)?
institutional and ideologised religion brings far more evil that good (in terms of catholic morality). And this self-denial makes it all even more miserable

Could not agree more.
Dear Stavros,

You said that you are interested in the physical sciences, pseudoscience, and the borders of religion and science. I guess you must be reading lots of books to gain more knowledge about these subjects. Here is one of them “Jesus under fire”. the editors are Michael J. Wilkins, a dean of a faculty and professor, and J. P. Moreland, a distinguished professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology.
Enjoy the reading.
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